Hallo liebe Mitforscher,
mir ist folgendes Paar aufgefallen:
Heirat 1872 Dabie, Polen:
MÜLLER Andrzej + Anna Justyna Spring
Geburten ab 1877 (St. Petersburg):
MÜLLER Andreas + Justine Spring/Sprenger
- 1877 Julianna Horodyszcze
- 1880 Adolph (3.Mai, Horodischtsche/Horodischtsche Kantorate) vs. Adam (6.Mai, Horadischtsche/Zhitomir)
- 1883 Wilhelmine (Horodischtsche/Horodischtsche Kantorate vs. Ludmilowka/Zhitomir)
Diese Einträge sind teils doppelt, es steht Kirchspiel Zhitomir und Horodischtsche (AGAD).
Es gibt jedoch Unterschiede...
Einerseits wäre es passend, wenn "Gorodischtsche" gemeint, Stumpp B4, Nähe Dubrowka, Makowetz.
Dies wäre insofern passend, dass
- 1900-1916 MÜLLER Abraham Andreasov in Makowitz, Kinder, Enteignung und Andreas+Justine Paten
- 1881(errechnet)-1900 Graff. geb. MÜLLER Charlotte Andreasov, in Dubrowka verstorben.
Andererseits liegt Ludmilowka bei Stumpp E5, dort gibt es auch einen Ort Horodischtsche...
Es ergeben sich leichte Widersprüche, aber die Ähnlichkeiten sind bis auf den Tag genau verblüffend.
Wie kann man das interpretieren?
Andreas Müller + Justine Spring - Horodyszcze
Jose Marcos Rosin , Córdoba, Cordoba, Argentina, Montag, 09.06.2025, 18:43 (vor 15 Tagen) @ Eduard Feicho
Hi Eduard, I have ancestors from a place called Horodyszce, and I also had conflicts over the wide variety of villages named that way.
"Horodyszcze/Horodischtsche/Gorodischtsche/Городище" are different ways of saying the same thing, just that were a lof of places were called like that.
My relatives also appear in those "Horodischtsche Kantorate" records, and mine are from Horodyszcze near Topcha, Tutschin, and Kostopol, in Rivne (Rowno).
This Horodyszcze belonged to the parish of Tutschin (Tuchyn) (1888-)
This Horodyszcze remained on the Polish side after the War.
You can find in on the map of Polish Volhynia in F3, and many of the other towns mentioned are in G4.
https://wolhynien.de/geography/lueck.htm
That village is now called Yalynivka (Ялинівка); they changed the name in 1965 precisely because there were too many Horodyszcze and it caused complications.
Yalynivka on Wikipedia (Ukrainian)
https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AF%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%96%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0_(%D0%A0%D1%96%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD%...
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My great-great-grandfather Wilhelm Besler appears in the Landenteignunglisten for Horodyszcze.
His daughter married my great-grandfather Hilscher from Korist (Korzysc/Koryst'/Користь)
There was a close relationship between the people of Topcha, Horodyszcze, Kolowert, and Korist; all my ancestors came from near Dabie in Poland and went to those villages in Volhynia.
The people of Horodyszcze also had a lot of contact with the Germans from Kamionka and Niespodzianka.
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I would research these names:
Landenteignunglisten Kolowert (Kolovert/Коловерта) 1915:
504; Miller / Müller, Adolf; Father: Andreas; 5 Desjatinen
https://www.wolhynien.de/register/expropriation/kolowert.htm
Most likely, the Andreas Müller you mention would have died in 1915, and I would believe that this Adolf, son of Andreas, so close to Horodyszcze in Kolowert, could easily be that Adolf.
----
Landenteignungsliste Topcza (Topcha/Toptscha/Топча) 1915:
584; Spring, Susanne; Father: Ludwig; 15 ½ Desjatinen
https://www.wolhynien.de/register/expropriation/topcza.htm
Well, the surname Müller is very common. There could be a chance in a magnificent coincidence, that there was an Adolf, son of Andreas, in Kolowert in 1915, but the surname Spring is rarer.
Susanna Neumann, Ludwig's daughter, from Topcha was the wife of Gottlieb Spring.
I don't have 100% proof to this, but I'm pretty sure this Gottlieb Spring is the brother of the Justine Spring you mentioned. He was born in 1838 in Dabie and probably died before 1915.
I know people who know the descendants of Gottlieb Spring/Susanna Neumann in Germany, if you're interested.
In 1940, there were several Müller in Kolowert. We have to check the EWZ archives to see if any of them were children of Andreas (it's difficult because the surname is very common).
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In conclusion, it seems to me that it is likely that the Horodyszcze you mention is this one near Tuchyn, since we happen to have an Adolf, son of an Andreas Müller in Kolowert, and a Gottlieb Spring in Topcha. From my point of view, it could be said that the families were not spreaded out so widely in Volhynia.
In Agoff, the only "Spring" that appears on the entire list of confiscations in Volhynia is this Spring, Susanna.
(Some Springer and Springel appear, but I doubt they are related.)
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I hope I haven't overwhelmed you with so much information, greets from Argentina.
Horodyszcze Kantorate - Adolph Andreasov
Eduard Feicho , Montag, 09.06.2025, 19:56 (vor 15 Tagen) @ Jose Marcos Rosin
My relatives also appear in those "Horodischtsche Kantorate" records, and mine are from Horodyszcze near Topcha, Tutschin, and Kostopol, in Rivne (Rowno).
This Horodyszcze belonged to the parish of Tutschin (Tuchyn) (1888-)This Horodyszcze remained on the Polish side after the War.
You can find in on the map of Polish Volhynia in F3, and many of the other towns mentioned are in G4.
https://wolhynien.de/geography/lueck.htm
Many thanks for explaining!
Yes I think the Polish AGAD records should relate to either your Horodyszcze on Polish side or maybe even Gorodischtsche (Stumpp B3) on Russian side if it's a copy?...
The one near Ludmilowka to me is a bit far if we assume that the book is a copy (with mistakes), or there just happened to be another couple with same names on the exact same day (unlikely)... But why on earth would you copy/translate Horodischtsche to Ludmilowka???
Landenteignunglisten Kolowert (Kolovert/Коловерта) 1915:
504; Miller / Müller, Adolf; Father: Andreas; 5 Desjatinen
https://www.wolhynien.de/register/expropriation/kolowert.htmMost likely, the Andreas Müller you mention would have died in 1915, and I would believe that this Adolf, son of Andreas, so close to Horodyszcze in Kolowert, could easily be that Adolf.
Hm, I see your point. Certainly there was some Adolph Andreasov Müller in the region 1916. The only problem with your theory is that Adolph Andreasov died young (1882-1884) (death record).
(Yes the name is very common, I know from experience)...
I don't have 100% proof to this, but I'm pretty sure this Gottlieb Spring is the brother of the Justine Spring you mentioned. He was born in 1838 in Dabie and probably died before 1915.
I think this would be a coincidence, because why would Müller Andreas relocate with Spring family? But yes Andreas and Justine married in Dabie.
Parents of Justine were Michal Spring + Ludwika Huzol.
At the moment I am not so interested in Spring family, but to find out if indeed they relocated to Polish side or Volhynian side would be useful.
All I can say is that
- 1916 landowners Abraham Andreasov (Makowitz, Stumpp C4)
- 1900-1913 Müller Abraham children (Andreas+Justine godparents)
- 1900 death record Graff born Mueller Charlotte Andreasov 1881-1900, "born Poland".
What contradicts the info in Horodyszcze Kantorate book is if Charlotte is born in Poland 1881, then her Andreas cannot be in Volhynia at the time.
My understanding is that West Volhynia became Polish in 1921.
Horodyszcze Kantorate - Adolph Andreasov
Jose Marcos Rosin , Córdoba, Cordoba, Argentina, Montag, 09.06.2025, 22:19 (vor 15 Tagen) @ Eduard Feicho
Many thanks for explaining!
Yes I think the Polish AGAD records should relate to either your Horodyszcze on Polish side or maybe even Gorodischtsche (Stumpp B3) on Russian side if it's a copy?...
Hm, I see your point. Certainly there was some Adolph Andreasov Müller in the region 1916. The only problem with your theory is that Adolph Andreasov died young (1882-1884) (death record).
(Yes the name is very common, I know from experience)...
Of course, I didn't know about the record of Adolf's death, you're right.
I don't have 100% proof to this, but I'm pretty sure this Gottlieb Spring is the brother of the Justine Spring you mentioned. He was born in 1838 in Dabie and probably died before 1915.
I think this would be a coincidence, because why would Müller Andreas relocate with Spring family? But yes Andreas and Justine married in Dabie.
Parents of Justine were Michal Spring + Ludwika Huzol.
Yes, Michael Spring & Anna Louise Herzog.
Andreas Müller, birth.
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/1835335
1846 Baptisms - Dabie (ew.)
Scan 5/125.
Reg 13.
Baptism: 21.1.1846 (9.1.1846 Julian calendar)
Birth: 15.1.1846 (3.1.1846 Julian calendar)
Parents: Ludwig Mülller & Anna Christine Zereck (Ludwik Myller & Anna Krystyna Cerecki)
Place: Banachow
10 km north Dabie, near Szczepanow.
Breyer Map, E5.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Cmentarz+Ewangelicko-Augsburski/@52.1712554,18.7713854,5328m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!...
I don't see it as so strange. My Rosin ancestors (who were from Sobotka, a few kilometers from Banachow) migrated to Lublin in a group of several families, including several Rosin brothers and cousins, as well as other families of Rosin's wives' siblings.
To me, it's entirely plausible that Andreas Müller/Justine Spring migrated with the family of Justine's brother, Gottlieb.
Furthermore, it just so happens that they ended up in very close towns. Spring being such a rare surname, I'd say it's hard not to believe there's a connection between Justine and Gottlieb.
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At the moment I am not so interested in Spring family, but to find out if indeed they relocated to Polish side or Volhynian side would be useful.
All I can say is that
- 1916 landowners Abraham Andreasov (Makowitz, Stumpp C4)
- 1900-1913 Müller Abraham children (Andreas+Justine godparents)
- 1900 death record Graff born Mueller Charlotte Andreasov 1881-1900, "born Poland".What contradicts the info in Horodyszcze Kantorate book is if Charlotte is born in Poland 1881, then her Andreas cannot be in Volhynia at the time.
My understanding is that West Volhynia became Polish in 1921.
What I don't understand about this is that, since we say Müller is a very common surname, how do we know those godparents would be Andreas Müller/Justine Spring? Does it say "Spring"?
I understand this Abraham Müller would be the son of an Andreas. Are you saying Abraham would be the son of Andreas/Justine Spring? If so, it would be very strange for him to choose his parents as godparents for his children.
Or are you trying to infer that Abraham is Andreas Müller's brother, but that couldn't be because Andreas is Ludwig's son, and Abraham is the son of an Andreas.
In any case, it could be that Andreas is an uncle, but that wouldn't be the case because Andreas would need to have a brother named Andreas for that, so he could have a son named Abraham, I don't see 2 brothers with the same name.
So, the relationship between Andreas Müller (Justine Spring's husband) and this Abraham Müller from can't be father-son, they can't be brothers, they can't be uncle-nephew, nor can they be grandson-grandfather; the dates doesn't match.
In other words, the closest possible relationship I see between Andreas Müller (Justine Spring's husband) and Abraham Müller from Makowitz is second cousins or something like that at best. I don't see the relationship you're trying to establish.
I'd even say that it was very unusual for someone older to be chosen as godfather. Andreas Müller/Justine Spring were already in their 60s, approximately, between 1900 and 1913. Godparents were usually young people.
In other words, from my perspective, I find it difficult to establish a relationship between this Abraham to Andreas Müller/Justine Spring. I also don't understand much of what you're trying to infer about Charlotte. Why should Charlotte be the daughter of Andreas Müller and Justine Spring?
She could be the daughter of an Andreas, yes, she could be Abraham's sister, yes, she could be the daughter of Andreas Müller/Justine Spring, I don't know, I see it as unlikely, especially considering what you mentioned about her being born in Poland, when Müller/Spring were already close to Tuchyn at that time.
Unless you have some record that indicates it is Justine Spring, otherwise it could simply be a coincidence of another Andreas Müller married to a Justine.
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding you due to translation errors, please explain to me.
Horodyszcze Kantorate - Kreis Rowno
Jose Marcos Rosin , Córdoba, Cordoba, Argentina, Montag, 09.06.2025, 22:27 (vor 15 Tagen) @ Jose Marcos Rosin
I forgot to mention that I noticed that the death record of Adolph Müller, son of Andreas/Justine Spring, says "Kreis Rowno" at the top.
For me, that eliminates all other possible Horodyszcze districts, those in Zhitomir District, etc. Especially since the names appearing there are of families from that area near Tuchyn.
There is another Horodyszcze district near Rivne, but it's a Mennonite settlement.
Luzk 1927, F4.
Andreas+Justine ?
Eduard Feicho , Montag, 09.06.2025, 23:56 (vor 15 Tagen) @ Jose Marcos Rosin
All I can say is that
- 1916 landowners Abraham Andreasov (Makowitz, Stumpp C4)
- 1900-1913 Müller Abraham children (Andreas+Justine godparents)
- 1900 death record Graff born Mueller Charlotte Andreasov 1881-1900, "born Poland".
What I don't understand about this is that, since we say Müller is a very common surname, how do we know those godparents would be Andreas Müller/Justine Spring? Does it say "Spring"?
No. It could be any surname.
If you take away "Spring" then these are just facts,
everything else is up to interpretation.
I can see we run into problems with "Spring",
you're probably right it might not be Spring surname after all.
My starting point was Charlotte 1881 Poland is rather late immigration and atypical.
There is only one "young" marriage in poznan-project with "Müller Andreas+Justine".
"Spring" surname was born.
St. Petersburg births confirmed immigration 1877...
It contradicts Polish birth 1881, but who knows.
The situation in Makowitz is really not trivial..
You'll see Andreas,Abraham,Jacob and Jakob...
They could be family, they could also not.
Andreas Müller + Justine Spring - Horodyszcze
Eduard Feicho , birth recoreds Dabie, Poland, Montag, 09.06.2025, 20:15 (vor 15 Tagen) @ Jose Marcos Rosin
I don't have 100% proof to this, but I'm pretty sure this Gottlieb Spring is the brother of the Justine Spring you mentioned. He was born in 1838 in Dabie and probably died before 1915.
I know people who know the descendants of Gottlieb Spring/Susanna Neumann in Germany, if you're interested.
I would be very interested to know how to find birth records in Dabie.
If we can find births of Müller Andreas+Justine Spring >=1872 then maybe we can disambiguate when they relocated and possible identify some people I am trying to find.